Ctrl + Alt ne devrait pas être équivalent de AltGr

[apprenti-sorcier]

La norme AFNOR prévoit que les combinaisons de touches doivent se faire avec AltGr et Maj.

Or, ce logiciel considère Ctrl + Alt comme équivalent de AltGr. C’est rédhibitoire, car les raccourcis dans les logiciels ne fonctionnent plus.
Par exemple : AltGr c doit donner ç
Mais Ctrl + Alt c dans LibreOffice Write (par exemple), c’est la fonction Ajouter un commentaire

On ne peut plus obtenir les raccourcis attendus avec ce clavier !

Pourtant. on peut distinguer Ctrl + Alt de AltGr ; la preuve en est que AutoHotkey le fait très bien.

[springcomp]

Hello @apprenti-sorcier merci pour ce retour.

Avez-vous moyen de m’indiquer comment fonctionne la disposition clavier standard fournie par Windows sur ce plan ?

Je pense que faire de Ctrl+Alt l’équivalent de AltGr est raisonnable pour les claviers qui ne disposent pas de la touche AltGr. Cela me semble très intéressant pour les amateurs de claviers mécaniques compacts.

Par ailleurs, Microsoft recommande que Ctrl+Alt ne soit pas utilisé pour mettre en œuvre des raccourcis clavier justement à cause de ce comportement.

[apprenti-sorcier]

J’ai essayé la même chose sur Windows 11 version 24H2 avec le clavier Français (Standard, AZERTY ) (donc sans ce logiciel) et malheureusement on a le même bogue, qui n’arrive pas avec le clavier Français (Traditionnel, AZERTY ) qui est installé par défaut.
Pour moi, c’est rédhibitoire dans les deux cas ; sur W 11 j’en suis réduit à utiliser ce dernier clavier + AutoHotkey où je reprogramme les touches dont j’ai besoin ; et donc sur W 10 aussi.

[dan-jac]

Indeed it is true that on Windows, AltGr is treated as Ctrl+Alt being pressed together. And indeed, app developers relying on Ctrl+Alt+ keyboard shortcuts is not a good idea for this reason.

The reason Ctrl+Alt+C activates the Comments keyboard shortcut in LibreOffice in the old 'traditional' French layout is because nothing is mapped to to AltGr+C.

There is a non-standard workaround to this though, if you're building your own keyboard layout, @springcomp ;)

If you take a look at the KLC for the Canadian Multilingual Standard keyboard, you'll find that it makes use of a little-known trick to create a new modifier key (in this case, they make another AltGr style key out of the right Ctrl key.)

You can use that same trick to make another modifier key out of the right Alt key. In that case, the layout wouldn't define any mappings for Ctrl+Alt; instead, it would put those mappings under your new custom modifier key. That way, Ctrl+Alt-based keyboard shortcuts would continue to work.

You'll see that Canadian layout has this atop the layout definition:

MODIFIERS

OEM_8	8

(VK_OEM_8 is the Right Ctrl key.)

And then in the layout map, Shiftstate 8 is where this modifier key's characters are defined.

What you can do is instead stick this atop your KLC file:

MODIFIERS

RMENU	8

Now, you'll be able to redefine the behaviour of the Right Alt key, which is VK_RMENU.

EDIT: Fixing link above. :)

[tbolon]

If you take a look at the KLC for the Canadian Multilingual Standard keyboard, you'll find that it makes use of a little-known trick to create a new modifier key (in this case, they make another AltGr style key out of the right Ctrl key.)

Thanks for the info, here is the fixed link: https://kbdlayout.info/kbdcan/download/klc

[springcomp]

Hello @dan-jac thanks for the detailed follow up.

I have the feeling that breaking the relationship between Ctrl+Alt and AltGr is not a good idea and I’m weary of publishing an official version for this.

In the meantime, I have created a temporary version using VK_RMENU as the modifier. @apprenti-sorcier, please download that version and feel free to tell me what you think.

In any case, I will not be able to maintain a full set of combinations for this layout:

• With dot versus a comma as the decimal separator using the num pad.
• With a custom AltGr modifier.
• etc.

Anyway, taking advantage of the continuous integration in this repo, anyone is free to submit a pull request and build a layout à la carte for their own enjoyment 😏.

[apprenti-sorcier]

Merci Maxime pour la réactivité.
J’ai essayé le clavier fourni par ce logiciel KBFRZ71_amd64.msi dans Windows 10, mais ce n’est pas encore au point :

• Dans certains logiciels comme LibreOffice Write, le raccourci fonctionne à l’inverse : Ctrl + Alt c écrit le caractère ç et AltGr c crée le commentaire. Ça aurait dû être l’inverse.
• Dans d’autres logiciels comme l’éditeur de texte EditPad Pro, il n’y a pas de différence : Ctrl + Alt d et AltGr d sont capturés par le logiciel de la même façon et on ne peut pas écrire $ par le clavier.
  N.B. : Il y a des dizaines de raccourcis avec Ctrl + Alt selon les logiciels ; ceux‐là ne sont que des exemples.

Pour compléter ce qui a été dit, si on prend l’exemple d’AutoHotkey, il arrive à distinguer la gauche de la droite. Extrait de l’aide en ligne :
<^>!m::MsgBox "You pressed AltGr+m."
<^<!m::MsgBox "You pressed LeftControl+LeftAlt+m."

[springcomp]

@dan-jac

I’m trying again but cannot seem to succeed.

I have tried the following changes to no avail:

  MODIFIERS
  RMENU	8

  SHIFTSTATE

  0	//Column 4
  1	//Column 5 : Shft
  2	//Column 6 :       Ctrl
  3	//Column 7 : Shft  Ctrl
- 6	//Column 8 :       AltGr
- 7	//Column 9 : Shft  AltGr
+ 8	//Column 8 :       AltGr
+ 9	//Column 9 : Shft  AltGr

  LAYOUT		;an extra '@' at the end is a dead key

My understanding was that SHIFTSTATE is using bitfields to designate modifiers.
Builtin modifiers are :

• VK_SHIFT = 0x0001 (1)
• VK_CTRL = 0x0010 (2)
• VK_MENU = 0x0100 (4)

So it made sense that in the current version of the layout, shift states are listed as thus:

• 6 = 2 + 4 = VK_CTRL + VK_MENU aka AltGr.
• 7 = 1 + 2 + 4 = VK_SHIFT + VK_CTRL + VK_MENU aka Shift+AltGr.

As per suggestions I have defined RMENU as a new modifier at bit position 0x1000 (8).
So it should follow that:

• 8 = VK_RMENU aka RAlt.
• 9 = 1 + 8 = VK_SHIFT+ VK_RMENU aka Shift+RAlt

However, this definitely does not work as is.
Is there anything I’m missing ?

Maybe I need to reorganize the columns and their values in the bulk of the layout definition?
Any suggestions ?

[springcomp]

I now understand that MSKLC hard-wires Ctrl+Alt to AltGr.
I need to patch the C source code file and compile the layout from there.

[dan-jac]

• 8 //Column 8 : AltGr
• 9 //Column 9 : Shft AltGr

• 8 = VK_RMENU aka RAlt.
• 9 = 1 + 8 = VK_SHIFT+ VK_RMENU aka Shift+RAlt

However, this definitely does not work as is. Is there anything I’m missing ?

Maybe I need to reorganize the columns and their values in the bulk of the layout definition? Any suggestions ?

What you've done here is exactly what I had meant to do. Apologies that it doesn't just work. I'll have to look into that when I get a moment.

I had thought that MSKLC should only hardcode Ctrl+Alt to AltGr when it's either set to do so explicitly with

ATTRIBUTES
ALTGR

or implicitly, when you have SHIFTSTATES that make use of Ctrl+Alt (i.e. numbered 6 and 7).

I had, perhaps wrongly, believed that this didn't otherwise happen.

To help isolate this specific issue as being the problem: Are you able to successfully remap other arbitrary keys to act as your “alternative Alt Gr”, e.g. Right Ctrl by use of

MODIFIERS
OEM_8	8

?